Posts by Juan Viejo2

89

1975 - A weak argument?

by Christ Alone in

i posted this on an older thread, but i wanted to get an honest opinion about this from all of you.

i think taking the 1975 approach with a jw is...weak.

was it wrong (and false prophetic) of them?

It was pretty clear that the WT leadership, specifically Fred Franz, was pushing hard that something would happen in 1975. You can tell that was the case about his reaction when nothing significant occurred in October that year - as he had prophecied. What is my evidence?

Because Franz immediately followed up with the excuse that maybe the count should have started when Eve was created - not Adam. He had no idea if Adam had lived days, months, or even years before Eve was popped out of his rib cage.

One other possibility that Franz and other floated was that the time started when Adam and Eve were tossed out of the garden. No way to calculate that either.

What they really missed in all of this is that there is not one single reference in the Bible that supports "creative days" being 7000 years long. That is totally a Watchtower hyper-myth. Many evangelical religions do not tie creative days to any specific time periods, but some suggest that each creative day was 1000 years. (A day unto the Lord is as a 1000 years,etc.) In fact, a candidate for Congress in the recent USA elections actually stated that he believed the earth was less than 9000 years old - which of course is nonsense considering how long human society has existed.

Those of us who were around at the time remember very clearly what was happening at assemblies and in our Kingdom Halls. Not a single meeting went by that some mention of 1975 was made in passing or directly from the podium. My parents called me (I wasn't in during the early 70s) and begged me to repent and return to The Truth for my sake and that of my children "because the brothers at Bethel are saying that we only have a couple of years left."

They loved me and sincerely did not want me or my family to die in 1975. My father was an elder at the time and privy to all the insider talk based on letters and information passed on from Bethel.

Anyone denying that the leaders of the Watchtower at all levels were pushing the belief that Armageddon was coming in 1975 is simply in denial, or worse.

JV

15

Six screens program

by stuckinamovement in

jw
friends

so for the first time i dialed in.

rick fearon....what a joke.

he sounds like a new jersey 3rd grade retard with tourette syndrome trying to play the role of pt barnum.

Juan Viejo2

SixScreens -

If this is the first time listening in, give Rick a break. He lives in Massachusetts and has a very strong New England / Boston accent. The call will have its good moments and a lot of low moments, but the nature of the conference call does not allow Rick to prepare or script it.

With featured guests Kathleen Conti and then later, Jim Penton, Rick gives us access to some of the most interesting ex-JWs and other critics.

Don't be too quick to slam Rick. He has his faults and has gone a bit overboard at times, rightfully earning him a lot of criticism here and from other sources - but he does provide a valuable resource to the rest of us. He means well and we need to give him credit for that.

JV

22

Contributions ,how the Society CONTROLS the funds of a congragation

by raymond frantz in

i'm not sure if anyone has started a post about contributions recently ,but if there is an accounts servant here please free to correct me or shed some more light .what i'm about to say is 100% accurate and applies to congragations in britain (don't ask me how just ...join the dots).

the society controls all the funds that are coming in the kingdom hall all of the time .the way this works out is as follows :you put any money in any of the contribution boxes and in the end all money are added to together and deposited to the congragation's bank account .the worldwide donations leave the account as a direct debit to the society every week and the rest stays in the account .now comes the interesting bit :once the account goes over 5000 we are instructed to send the rest to the society as a cheque and is held in their account for as long as the congragation doesn't needed back .this way all but 5000 are held in the society's account .any other experiences ?.

Juan Viejo2

Watchtower Bible and Tract Society

Dear Brothers in the Truth,

You say you want your money back? You claim to need those excess funds that we are holding in trust for you?

So sorry. Since our money market and mutual funds accounts did not perform to our satisfaction, we are restricting the return of funds to local congregations. In fact, we will be charging Kingdom Halls additional monthly service charges for holding those funds we refuse to give back.

We suggest that you go back to the members of your congregation and ask them to dig a little deeper. Suggest that they stop taking their kids to movies and fast food joints - it's all bad for them. We can provide addresses for local "day old" bakery outlets and community food banks. In fact, taking your kids to eat at the local midnight mission once a week will help them understand the plight of the homeless while providing them an adequate meal.

Bottom line: We need your money more than you need your money. Pipe broken? Get some duct tape. Window cracked? Use some clear packing tape. In other words - be proactive and quit trying to get us to give your money back.

Above all do not fret over small inconveniences. We leave all things to Jehovah. He will provide. Just wait on Jehovah. [We hear that due to so many pending and unanswered requests, Jehovah is a little backed up, so your wait may be rather extended - like the rest of your lives.]

With sincere Brotherly Love,

Christian Congregation of Jehovah's Witnesses

22

Richard Rawe

by Outaservice in

jw
friends

it was reported to me in an e-mail that richard rawe of soap lake, washington has died.. many of you might remember him and god rest his soul.. outaservice.

.

Juan Viejo2

Does anyone know of any funeral or memorial services being planned for Mr. Rawe?

JV

5

Dying to find out if you made it to Paradise

by Juan Viejo2 in

i remember as a jw kid listening to a special talk about life after death by lester dugan, a circuit overseer whose mother attended our kingdom hall.

i don't think he was our circuit servant (in fact i'm pretty sure he was not), but he would visit our hall about twice a year when he took time to see his elderly mom.. his talk was about life after death and achieving paradise through good works and staying active in the preaching work.

after nearly 60 years, i remember very little of the bulk of his talk, but i do remember a couple of questions that he answered afterwards:.

Juan Viejo2

Cold Steel - That's good to know. But what about my dog? Will she be transformed in an instant and join me? Life would just not be worth living if I didn't have my dog with me.

All this time I thought every living thing will eventually die and be reabsorbed into the universe of mass and energy from whence we came. But your logical description has cleared up all of my confusion. You are a wise and educated person. I can hardly wait to meet you on the other side.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l7E6sihLgdU

JV

22

Contributions ,how the Society CONTROLS the funds of a congragation

by raymond frantz in

i'm not sure if anyone has started a post about contributions recently ,but if there is an accounts servant here please free to correct me or shed some more light .what i'm about to say is 100% accurate and applies to congragations in britain (don't ask me how just ...join the dots).

the society controls all the funds that are coming in the kingdom hall all of the time .the way this works out is as follows :you put any money in any of the contribution boxes and in the end all money are added to together and deposited to the congragation's bank account .the worldwide donations leave the account as a direct debit to the society every week and the rest stays in the account .now comes the interesting bit :once the account goes over 5000 we are instructed to send the rest to the society as a cheque and is held in their account for as long as the congragation doesn't needed back .this way all but 5000 are held in the society's account .any other experiences ?.

Juan Viejo2

Several congregations that have asked for some of their excess funds to be returned to them have been urged by the Society to find other ways to get the funds they need. This should have been expected - once the money is firmly in the Society's accounts, they are loathe to release them back to the local Kingdom Halls.

I recently received an email from one of my contacts who is an elder. He told me that the plumbing in the KH bathrooms was damaged during an earthquake and that some of the porcelain was cracked and pulled away from the wall. They'd gotten an estimate from a local plumbing company that came to about $3000. The accounts servant contacted the Society and asked for $3500 to be returned to their active Kingdom Hall expense account.

The response he got was to refer the problem to the local RBC and have them resolve the issue. The RBC could probably find a JW plumber in the area who would do the work for free and that anything needing to be replaced could be purchased at a local Lowe's or Home Depot. The RBC also had access to otherwise good replacement or leftover plumbing parts removed from KHs that had been remodeled.

Bottom line is that the Society did not want to give the KH their money back. Sounds like a scam to me...

JV

5

Dying to find out if you made it to Paradise

by Juan Viejo2 in

i remember as a jw kid listening to a special talk about life after death by lester dugan, a circuit overseer whose mother attended our kingdom hall.

i don't think he was our circuit servant (in fact i'm pretty sure he was not), but he would visit our hall about twice a year when he took time to see his elderly mom.. his talk was about life after death and achieving paradise through good works and staying active in the preaching work.

after nearly 60 years, i remember very little of the bulk of his talk, but i do remember a couple of questions that he answered afterwards:.

Juan Viejo2

I remember as a JW kid listening to a special talk about life after death by Lester Dugan, a circuit overseer whose mother attended our Kingdom Hall. I don't think he was our circuit servant (in fact I'm pretty sure he was not), but he would visit our hall about twice a year when he took time to see his elderly mom.

His talk was about life after death and achieving paradise through good works and staying active in the preaching work. After nearly 60 years, I remember very little of the bulk of his talk, but I do remember a couple of questions that he answered afterwards:

Q. When a member of the 144,000 anointed ones dies, how are they transformed?

Dugan: Since 1918 those who are anointed and die in faithfulness to Jehovah and Jesus will be transformed from their human shell directly into spirit and will ascend into heaven as Jesus did. Upon arrival, that chosen one will be seated next to Jesus and be gathered to the other chosen ones.

Q. When someone with the earthly hope dies, how will they know if they made it through the resurrection and into paradise earth?

Dugan: To them it will be an instant transformation as well. Because the "dead know nothing" when they are dead, during the period of their death they have no sensation of anything at all. So if they are faithful members of the earthly class, upon their death they will wake up to a paradise around them. It will seem immediate to them - as if they had not waited at all. What a wonderful blessing to those loved ones and those ancient worthies who served Jehovah faithfully. Imagine those Israelite soldiers who followed Joshua and David into battle against the enemies of Jehovah's kingdom; killed by a Hittite sword one minute and waking up in paradise the next.

Q. So if one of our loved ones (those who are faithful) die from accident, disease, or old age - are you saying that to them there is no waiting for paradise?

Dugan: In a sense, that is true. Think of life before you were born, whether that was thousands or even millions of years. To you everything began the day you were born. You were in your mother's womb alive, but unknowing - and then you are born and aware of your surroundings. That is the way it is for Jehovah's faithful followers when they die. The grave is like a womb holding them until their rebirth into paradise with a perfect body.

He wrapped up his talk by assuring us all in the audience that we should not be too sad when one of our loved ones or "friends in the truth" dies. Yes, we will miss them, but for them the transformation will seem instantaneous. Unlike the Catholics that believe in holding places like Limbo and Purgatory, or places of eternal punishment like Hell, Jehovah's Witnesses know that death is not something to fear, but to look forward to - instant transformation from imperfect life in an awful world, to a perfect life in a perfect body in a garden like Eden.

When Richard Dawkins was asked if (as an atheist) he was afraid of dying, he replied that he had not existed for billions of years and did just fine. Before he was born he felt no pain, no anxiety, no feelings at all. He figured that when he died that he would simply return to that same condition that he enjoyed before he was born.

So for those of you who believe in life after death, if Dugan was right, then you should know instantly upon your death where you will end up. I figure it will be like the time I had to undergo major surgery that took well over an hour. The nurse that was managing my anathesia hooked me up and asked if I was ready. I figured that I would either wake up or I wouldn't. Either way would be painless. He tapped me on my clavical and said "have a nice rest." What seemed to be an instant I woke up in ICU in a recovery bed with my family all around telling me that everything went well and that I would be fine. To me it seemed as if I closed my eyes and then opened them a second later in an entirely different environment.

JV

98

I am signing off....

by Cagefighter in

jw
friends

might be back, might not.

i really appreciate the historical information on the jw's this board allowed me to find out about.

it really put things into perspective.

Juan Viejo2

I'm sorry - but is someone taking attendance here on this forum? Do we have to check in every day? Do we get a tardy slip if we are late for a session?

I remain totally confused by members of this great forum who have to announce that they are leaving for one reason or another. Yeah, there might be a legitimate reason once in a while. For example: a long time member might be ill and want to let us all know why they aren't going to be active any longer. We appreciate knowing why we won't be seeing their smiling avatar here anymore.

It's nice when new members post a "Hi there! I'm here at last. This is who I am and where I've been.." post. It's good to know a little about our newest members.

But when someone creates a new thread that says "I'm leaving because...":

1. I think you are all evil apostates

2. You hurt my feelers

3. I didn't agree with something someone said

4. I don't like your attitudes

5. I've decided to go back to the Kingdom Hall

6. I'm tired and need to take a break from all of this noise

7. I'm going on vacation

8. I'm giving up on the evil Internet

9. Someone said something bad about OBVES

10. I've decided to move to another forum where they love Jesus and believe in the King James Version of the Bible (it was "authorized," you know)

If you are tired of this forum, then just go. Come back again if you want - or don't. If you need to take a break - take a break.

Is it really necessary to try to make the rest of us feel bad about hanging around?

Just go - and don't let the screen door slam behind you. Most of us will still be here when you decide to come back.

JV

49

S.F. Giants vs. Detroit Tigers in World Series ! Who Do You Pick to Win ?

by flipper in

jw
friends

i'm flyin' high right about now !

my san francisco giants came back beat cincinnati 3 games to 2 after being down 2-0 and tonight they came back and beat st. louis 4 games to 3 after being down 3-1 !

and we had tornados in northern california in a powerful storm while this was going down tonight !

Juan Viejo2

I was going to say Giants in 4 games - but I was busy watching the last game...

JV

45

Letter From Whitney's Mother

by breakfast of champions in

jw
friends

just saw this on google news.

link to letter here.. .

dear family, i want to tell you that although this has been the worst of my lifes tribulations, that i am still standing.. the obvious reason is that jehovah is the faithful keeper of promises holding to his word that never, would his great love allow his precious children to be tested beyond what we could bear.

Juan Viejo2

I wonder if the brother giving the funeral talk at Whitney's memorial service will give her more than the three minutes every other JW gets when they die?

I wonder how her mother, father, husband, and siblings will feel when they hear the same old standard "sell-the-crowd-on-paradise" talk that you hear at JW funerals.

It does appear that besides the usual service, the family (or "friends of") are planning a private memorial for closer friends and relatives.

JV